The Forward Look Network
The Forward Look Network
Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Chat | eBay | Calendars | Albums | Skins | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forward Look Technical Discussions -> Steering and SuspensionMessage format
 
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-13 11:33 PM (#632317)
Subject: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
I am currently trying to adapt Gary S's (Wayfarer's) 354 hemi Saginaw PS pump bracket to work on my 315 hemi (and 315 poly's if this works).

One of the issues is the clearance limitations where the high pressure port on the Saginaw pump is located, necessitating the use of 90 deg JIC fitting.

So far, for me, this means a No. 6 JIC fitting which I think translates to a 3/8" tubing fitting.

For fun today, I purchased a 40" piece of pre-flared 3/8" tubing (comes with female tube nuts that I won't use).

I compared the flare of the tubing to the JIC fitting and I am now confused/perplexed regarding how poorly they seem to mate (male JIC to female double flare).

Am I missing something or is that the way it is??

Photos:



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-10-13 11:38 PM




(DodgeTruck318PSPumpWithMetricBanjoFittingxNo6JIC_Detail.jpg)



(3EightsFlaredTubingComparedToNo6JIC_Overall.jpg)



(3EightsFlaredTubingComparedToNo6JIC_Close.jpg)



(3EightsFlaredTubingComparedToNo6JIC_Touching.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DodgeTruck318PSPumpWithMetricBanjoFittingxNo6JIC_Detail.jpg (147KB - 45 downloads)
Attachments 3EightsFlaredTubingComparedToNo6JIC_Overall.jpg (146KB - 53 downloads)
Attachments 3EightsFlaredTubingComparedToNo6JIC_Close.jpg (145KB - 47 downloads)
Attachments 3EightsFlaredTubingComparedToNo6JIC_Touching.jpg (147KB - 53 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2023-10-14 12:03 AM (#632318 - in reply to #632317)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9552
5000200020005002525
Location: So. Cal
They are incompatible with each other. The JIC fittings use a 37 degree flare, whereas the inverted flare uses 45 degrees. If you are going to use the JIC fitting, you will need to either flare your own tube with the proper dimensions, or use a different line. Most of the time, they use flexible hose fittings with those.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-14 2:46 AM (#632319 - in reply to #632318)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Thanks Nathan. I bought the PA brand tubing to mock-up a 3/8" line from the "new" Saginaw PS pump to the Coaxial steering box. I intend to use Ultra-Bend tubing but at its price of about $10 per ft, I thought I would try the steel tubing at about $14 for 40" just to play with.

That said I didn't realize that the JIC fittings that I will have to use were 37 deg so your answer provided me with an education about JIC.

I guess I will need to get something like this:

Summit Racing™ 37 Degree Flare Tool Sets SUM-900311



https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900311

https://surrauto.com/kits/ultrabend/



Top of the page Bottom of the page
58coupe
Posted 2023-10-14 11:11 AM (#632320 - in reply to #632317)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert

Posts: 1734
100050010010025
Location: Alaska
Make sure you double flare the tubing, a single flare won't handle the pressure.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-14 7:10 PM (#632330 - in reply to #632318)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Okay. The light bulb is slowly starting to come on and illuminate my brain cavity.

Echo Echo Echo

I had forgotten that when I bought that 90 deg M16 ORB x No.6 JIC fitting, the fellow also sold me a 3/8" tubing nut and a sleeve. (The sleeve actually showed in the photos above when I used it to hold up the 3/8" SAE 45 deg flared tube - DUH).

Anyway, I tested the sleeve against the JIC fitting and naturally it fits perfectly.

That said, I am not sure how it is supposed to work with the 3/8" tubing.

Somebody (Nathan, Del, Ron, Rolland ??) want to school me? (Please)

*OR* point me to Remedial Tubing School



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-10-14 7:15 PM




(No6JICWithSleeveTubingNutAndTube.jpg)



(No6JICWithSleeve_PerfectFit.jpg)



(No6JICWithSleeveTubingNutAndTube_Together.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments No6JICWithSleeveTubingNutAndTube.jpg (147KB - 46 downloads)
Attachments No6JICWithSleeve_PerfectFit.jpg (148KB - 45 downloads)
Attachments No6JICWithSleeveTubingNutAndTube_Together.jpg (148KB - 46 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-14 7:23 PM (#632332 - in reply to #632330)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Just Googled and answered my own question:

"What is the function of the sleeve on a flared tube fitting?

The Role of JIC Fittings: What They Are, Advantages, and ...
The seal in JIC fittings is created through the metal-to-metal contact of the finished surface of the fitting nose and the inside of the flared tubing.
The fitting sleeve supports the connection between the fitting nose and the inside of the flared tubing by distributing the compression during assembly."
May 7, 2020

Bottomline: Still need to make 37 deg double flares. (Don't own a 37 deg flaring kit (yet))



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-10-14 7:25 PM




(Flare Tube Assembly Render.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Flare Tube Assembly Render.jpg (10KB - 51 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-15 11:18 AM (#632336 - in reply to #632332)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Del S (Dels56) sent me this diagram. It definitely shows how the sleeve and tubing nut combine to push the 37 deg flare onto the nose of the JIC
end of a combination ORB/JIC fitting.

Edited by 56D500boy 2023-10-15 11:23 AM




(JICTubingNutAndSleeveInAction_withTube.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments JICTubingNutAndSleeveInAction_withTube.jpg (99KB - 57 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
58coupe
Posted 2023-10-15 11:56 AM (#632337 - in reply to #632317)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert

Posts: 1734
100050010010025
Location: Alaska
I have a question for you. Are you planning to run a steel line for the pressure side from the pump to the steering box? This is not a good idea if you are as the vibration and movement of the engine will cause that line to fail.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-15 12:40 PM (#632339 - in reply to #632337)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
58coupe - 2023-10-15 8:56 AM
I have a question for you. Are you planning to run a steel line for the pressure side from the pump to the steering box? This is not a good idea if you are as the vibration and movement of the engine will cause that line to fail.


Understood. I *was* vaguely thinking of all steel (UltraBend) tubing (with some kind of curlicue to take the movement) *BUT* now I am going back to thinking
at least part of the line needs to be rubber.

I don't have much clearance between the back of the Saginaw PS pump and the head/block so I need to have a 90 deg JIC fitting on the PS pump, then 3/8" steel tubing going straight up, then a 90 deg tubing bend, then some rubber high pressure hose, then coming down with a crimped fitting to the JIC/ORB fitting in the PS gear box.

It needs to end up something like this (OE):



But it starts off tight, regardless of 90 deg swivel fitting or banjo:




(DodgeTruck318PSPumpWithMetricXJICfitting_Installed_OldPump.jpg)



(DodgeTruck318PSPumpWithMetricXJICfitting_Installed.jpg)



(DodgeTruck318PSPumpWithMetricBanjoFittingxNo6JIC.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DodgeTruck318PSPumpWithMetricXJICfitting_Installed_OldPump.jpg (147KB - 49 downloads)
Attachments DodgeTruck318PSPumpWithMetricXJICfitting_Installed.jpg (146KB - 49 downloads)
Attachments DodgeTruck318PSPumpWithMetricBanjoFittingxNo6JIC.jpg (145KB - 45 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2023-10-15 1:28 PM (#632340 - in reply to #632317)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13020
5000500020001000
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Dave, mind that the power steering hose MUST NOT be too hard as it needs to absorb the pulsations from the pump.

Hose construction withstands internal oil temperatures of up to 300 degrees F and pulsation pressures up to 1,500 PSI, ensuring component integrity in high-heat, high-stress operating environments

If the hose is too hard, you'll get all the pulsations as vibrations up to the steering wheel - very annoying
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-15 3:32 PM (#632344 - in reply to #632339)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2023-10-15 9:40 AM

Understood. I *was* vaguely thinking of all steel (UltraBend) tubing (with some kind of curlicue to take the movement) *BUT* now I am going back to thinking
at least part of the line needs to be rubber.


This is what I am thinking. I have the details of the crimp fittings but I am too lazy at this point to annotate the sketch with them.





(FirstCutAtBuildingAPSHoseForSaginawPSPumpInstall_Annotated_small.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments FirstCutAtBuildingAPSHoseForSaginawPSPumpInstall_Annotated_small.jpg (120KB - 50 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
dels56
Posted 2023-10-15 6:46 PM (#632346 - in reply to #632344)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 336
10010010025
Hi Dave. The
Saginaw power steering pump/s are a balanced vane, they as piston or gear pumps produce a sine wave produced by each chamber going from a high pressure to a low pressure as the chambers open and close. In the case of the older power steering pumps on our fifty sixes and the Saginaw the pulse wave was somewhat removed with the use of a two diameter fluid line. Somewhere in the middle between the pump and steering box the hose had a coupling, say, from 3/8 at the pump to 1/4 at the steering box. This reduced the pulse wave to where you would not feel it on the steering wheel. You have accomplished that with the fitting sizes.

Del
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-16 9:42 PM (#632367 - in reply to #632346)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Thanks for those comments Del. I probably need to read (and re-read) that again until it sinks in.

In the meantime, I went to my favourite local hydraulic hose and fitting store and bought one of the major hose ends, 2 ft of hose and another -AN tubing nut and sleeve.

When I got home, I cut (butchered) a 13" section of the 40" 3/8" tubing that I bought last week. Bent the last 3 or 4 inches of the 13" piece to a 90. Then I added the tubing nuts and -AN sleeves and flared the ends at the incorrect 45 deg (I am just shooting for proof of concept, not sealing 800 psi of PS fluid.) I won't actually use that piece of tubing in the real application.

The hose is 3/8ths EATON hydraulic hose, good for 5000 psi (so 800 psi will be fine)

I did NOT buy that pricey 90 deg hose crimp to No. 6 long drop fitting just yet.

I did get an agreement that they would crimp the hose fittings if I signed a waver (re: liability of using the hose for a power steering application - they are NOT responsible).

Next: Testing that 13", 90 bend on the PS in the car to see what I need to modify (probably something )

This:



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-10-16 11:28 PM




(FirstCutAtBuildingAPSHoseForSaginawPSPumpInstall_RealComponents_Apart.jpg)



(FirstCutAtBuildingAPSHoseForSaginawPSPumpInstall_RealComponents_Together.jpg)



(FirstCutAtBuildingAPSHoseForSaginawPSPumpInstall_RealComponents_Annotated.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments FirstCutAtBuildingAPSHoseForSaginawPSPumpInstall_RealComponents_Apart.jpg (142KB - 47 downloads)
Attachments FirstCutAtBuildingAPSHoseForSaginawPSPumpInstall_RealComponents_Together.jpg (149KB - 50 downloads)
Attachments FirstCutAtBuildingAPSHoseForSaginawPSPumpInstall_RealComponents_Annotated.jpg (59KB - 47 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
dels56
Posted 2023-10-17 12:01 PM (#632375 - in reply to #632317)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 336
10010010025
Looking Good, but a bit overkill on the Hydraulic Hose. Working pressure of 5000, burst pressure @ 4:1 = 20,000 PSI. 90 percent of all hyd hose failures are within an inch of the coupling, so no sharp bend at the ends. Don't tell the supplier it is power steering, it could be for your lawn mower.
Del
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-17 2:20 PM (#632376 - in reply to #632375)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
dels56 - 2023-10-17 9:01 AM
Looking Good, but a bit overkill on the Hydraulic Hose. Working pressure of 5000, burst pressure @ 4:1 = 20,000 PSI..
Del


Del: This was at New Line. I told them that I only needed something for 1500 psi and the 5000 psi EATON hose is what they sold me.

At $5.00 or so a foot and I asked for 2 ft, I didn't really care that it was overkill or not.

Yeh, "lawnmower". That's the ticket. (in my best Jon Lovitz/Tommy Flanagan voice)

Yeh, that's the ticket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLRKhdQnd-k





(YehThatsTheTicket.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments YehThatsTheTicket.jpg (140KB - 48 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-17 9:29 PM (#632382 - in reply to #632376)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
This wasn't supposed to be a thread, just a question and answers about JIC 37 vs normal 45 flare but it somehow morphed in a full thread. (Sorry about that)

In the short run, I am just going to add to it.

Today, I tried my eyeballed bent tubing on the "Mock-up" pump and then installed the pump back on the engine (sort of - bracket issues still need to be resolved).

Initially I tried the 90 deg and banjo fittings in both my mock-up PS pump and my "new" Rock Auto pump. There were issues with the new pump and the banjo fitting so I went with the 90 deg fitting in the mock-up pump. Turns out that was a mistake.

That created clearance problems between the discharge tubing and the head. Hmmm....

It was also clear that my first guess at the length of the "vertical" leg of the tubing was too much. Needed to shorten the tubing.

So for round two, I used the banjo fitting because it brings the pump discharge closer to the pump body and eliminates the tubing to head clearance problem.

I also shortened the vertical leg by 4". In retrospect, I should have only shortened it by 3" to get the horizontal hose run into a better location (more space).

This is what I did today, starting with the 90 deg fitting and the long vertical leg, followed by comparison of the 90 deg leg and the banjo fitting and then re-installation with the banjo fitting and the shortened vertical leg pipe.

Who knows what I will change tomorrow? (its all trial and error here kiddies )



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-10-18 2:18 AM




(FirstTrialWithRidgidTubing_Oops_TooLong.jpg)



(MockUpPSPumpWith_90DegFitting.jpg)



(MockUpPSPumpWith_BanjoFitting.jpg)



(MockUpPSPumpWith_BanjoFittingAndShorterPipe.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments FirstTrialWithRidgidTubing_Oops_TooLong.jpg (149KB - 48 downloads)
Attachments MockUpPSPumpWith_90DegFitting.jpg (148KB - 49 downloads)
Attachments MockUpPSPumpWith_BanjoFitting.jpg (148KB - 47 downloads)
Attachments MockUpPSPumpWith_BanjoFittingAndShorterPipe.jpg (146KB - 55 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-18 9:03 PM (#632398 - in reply to #632382)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Might as well carry on (I am getting to the quitting point - for now - anyway).

Did another trial with the 3/8" steel tubing which I called "Mk 3"

In review:

Mk1 was me just guessing the lengths of the two legs. I over estimated the needed length of the vertical leg.

Mk2 was trying to fix Mk1 by cutting 4" off the vertical leg, leaving the horizontal leg alone.

Mk3 (today) included cutting a new piece of tubing and redoing with the vertical leg about 1" longer than Mk2 and the horizontal leg about 3/4" shorter than Mk2.

In general it is better. *BUT* I really FUBAR'd the 90 bend. I was just working with a 12" length and when I tried to bend it, it just kinked at the bend. Good thing I am only trying to get the geometry right.

I think I got the vertical leg about right. I think next time I will try to make the horizontal leg a tiny bit longer. I just want it long enough to I can make and attach bracket from the tubing to the closest valve cover bolt, to stabilize the tubing, letting the rubber leg take care of the engine twisting, etc.

From today (and yes, if you want to tell me what I did wrong with the bend please do (but be gentle))





(Mk2TrialTubeOverGraphPaper_RedIsMk3.jpg)



(Mk3TrialTubeOverGraphPaper_BladkIsMk2.jpg)



(Mk2and3OnGraphPaper.jpg)



(Mk3PSTubing Trial_Unlifted.jpg)



(Mk3PSTubing Trial_LiftedTOOmuch.jpg)



(Mk3ShowingProximityToValveCoverBolt.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Mk2TrialTubeOverGraphPaper_RedIsMk3.jpg (146KB - 54 downloads)
Attachments Mk3TrialTubeOverGraphPaper_BladkIsMk2.jpg (148KB - 51 downloads)
Attachments Mk2and3OnGraphPaper.jpg (149KB - 45 downloads)
Attachments Mk3PSTubing Trial_Unlifted.jpg (149KB - 55 downloads)
Attachments Mk3PSTubing Trial_LiftedTOOmuch.jpg (148KB - 47 downloads)
Attachments Mk3ShowingProximityToValveCoverBolt.jpg (148KB - 54 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-19 8:01 PM (#632406 - in reply to #632398)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Bought a better tubing bender this AM from a local source (similar bender at Harbor Freight for less money and Summit Racing for more money - both require shipping to me so local was better for me).

Bent my last piece of 3/8" Poly Armour steel tubing. The bender makes a much tighter bend than my original Mk.1 and Mk.2 (which was just Mk. 1 with a shortened vertical leg). I did well with the bend and the flaring but I F'k'd up with the horizontal tubing nut. I put it on backwards (and didn't check my work before I flared that end - DUH ) Oh well, moving on to Nickel Copper anyway for the next trials, etc.

Still need to pick up a 37 deg Kit. Probably from Summit Racing. Can NOT find one locally (or at Harbor Freight).

So Mk 4 might be a bit too tall vertical and maybe a bit too long horizontally. Definitely should be able to anchor to the valve cover bolt.

The bender I bought and then Mk. 4



(MasterCraftTubingBender.jpg)



(Mk4Attempt_SlightlyLongerLegs.jpg)



(Mk4InPlaceSortOf_MaybeTooLong.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments MasterCraftTubingBender.jpg (106KB - 46 downloads)
Attachments Mk4Attempt_SlightlyLongerLegs.jpg (147KB - 45 downloads)
Attachments Mk4InPlaceSortOf_MaybeTooLong.jpg (148KB - 45 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-22 9:51 PM (#632446 - in reply to #632406)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Ran out of 3/8" steel tubing (I had bought a 40" length of Poly Armour and by the end of Mk. 4 I had used it all up).

Bought a length of 3/8" Copper Nickel tubing. Much more expensive. Very easy to bend. Maybe too easy. Easy to do a single flare.

While I am waiting for my new Summit Racing 37 deg flaring kit to arrive to work with my JIC fittings, I made one more trial (Mk5) with 45 flares.

Mk5 leg lengths were basically the same as Mk4 but this time I actually got BOTH tubing nuts on correctly before I did the 45 flare. So I could finally add
the 3/8" hose x No. 6 JIC fitting and see where the hose lands near the Coaxial steering box.

Based on the thickness of the crimp fitting I am considering running the horizontal leg of the tube more rearward to the crimp and JIC Nut end up in a pocket above the upper control room.
This would give engine more room to rock without banging the hose into the valve cover and/or fender apron.

At the coaxial steering gear box end, I am wondering whether a simple crimp to Female JIC would work. More figuring to come.

Today:





(Mk5AttemptVerySimilarToMk4ButInNickelCopper.jpg)



(Mk5WithHoseFittingAndHose_2.jpg)



(Mk5WithHoseCloseToOEJIC4Fitting.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Mk5AttemptVerySimilarToMk4ButInNickelCopper.jpg (146KB - 53 downloads)
Attachments Mk5WithHoseFittingAndHose_2.jpg (149KB - 51 downloads)
Attachments Mk5WithHoseCloseToOEJIC4Fitting.jpg (149KB - 47 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-24 12:40 PM (#632463 - in reply to #632446)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2023-10-22 6:51 PM
Based on the thickness of the crimp fitting I am considering running the horizontal leg of the tube more rearward to the crimp and JIC Nut end up in a pocket above the upper control room.
This would give engine more room to rock without banging the hose into the valve cover and/or fender apron.
At the coaxial steering gear box end, I am wondering whether a simple crimp to Female JIC would work. More figuring to come.


Still waiting on the Summit Racing 37 flare kit to arrive. So what to do, what to do.

Okay, make a Mk6 hard tube with the horizontal leg about 2.75" longer and see how that works out.

Might work.





(ComparisonOfTheLongLegMk6ToTheShortLegMk5.jpg)



(Mk6MetalTubeJICToCrimpAndRubberHose.jpg)



(Mk6MetalTubeWithRubberHoseNearCoaxialGearBox.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments ComparisonOfTheLongLegMk6ToTheShortLegMk5.jpg (143KB - 52 downloads)
Attachments Mk6MetalTubeJICToCrimpAndRubberHose.jpg (148KB - 53 downloads)
Attachments Mk6MetalTubeWithRubberHoseNearCoaxialGearBox.jpg (148KB - 47 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
22mafeja
Posted 2023-10-25 1:33 AM (#632467 - in reply to #632317)
Subject: RE: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?


Elite Veteran

Posts: 626
50010025
Location: Finland
I think you should make a support between the valve cover bolt and the tube to avoid vibrations.
When I attach a new tube and fitting I pre tighten them with a loose male fitting in the wise. That way you can be sure they are sealing perfectly. They have to be tightened beyond
belief to get sealed imo. The banjo should be tightened at last since it is easiest to tighten.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-25 2:06 AM (#632468 - in reply to #632467)
Subject: RE: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Thanks for the suggestions Ralf. I am still waiting on the Summit Racing 37 deg flare kit so I worked on a bracket today.

The main bracket material is a metal strap normally used to hold 1" (25 mm) metal electrical conduit to walls, etc. The other component is a rubber
insulated cable strap, or in this case a 3/8" (9 mm) tubing strap.

I also got the final bits (2 piece) to land the hose onto the Coaxial steering gear box with a 45 deg fitting.

Regarding the bracket, the vertical leg is too tall and the "foot" needs some shaping to fit into a niche in the hemi valve cover and a bigger hole. Both modifications will happen tomorrow (I hope).

This:



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-10-25 2:43 AM




(BracketAndClampAnd45degSolutions_2.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments BracketAndClampAnd45degSolutions_2.jpg (147KB - 51 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
local2Ed
Posted 2023-10-25 8:35 AM (#632469 - in reply to #632468)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 579
500252525
I'm not familiar with the 1956 Dodge power steering set-up.
Is there a problem with them that can't be fixed due to lack of parts?
I'm not seeing the reason to make the change.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-25 10:11 AM (#632470 - in reply to #632469)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
local2Ed - 2023-10-25 5:35 AM
I'm not seeing the reason to make the change.


Zeke: I want to show off my D500 double-rocker (aka "hemi head") engine that is currently hidden, at least on the driver's side, by the close-coupled Generator-PS pump system and the Power Brake vacuum tank, etc.

This will entail installing an alternator down low(ish) on the passenger side, a PS pump down low on the driver's side and a new PB system.

I have worked out the alternator and PB systems for the most part. The last system to get figured out is the PS pump.

I hate this mess:

Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2023-10-25 11:47 AM (#632471 - in reply to #632317)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13020
5000500020001000
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Dave, make a paper cylinder mock-up and check if the vacuum accumulator tank can be mounted under the battery tray. On '60 Windsors it's mounted under the battery tray, the large cars has it under the front fender right behind the headlight buckets.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
local2Ed
Posted 2023-10-25 2:24 PM (#632472 - in reply to #632470)
Subject: Re: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 579
500252525
56D500boy - 2023-10-25 10:11 AM

local2Ed - 2023-10-25 5:35 AM
I'm not seeing the reason to make the change.


Zeke: I want to show off my D500 double-rocker (aka "hemi head") engine that is currently hidden, at least on the driver's side, by the close-coupled Generator-PS pump system and the Power Brake vacuum tank, etc.
>



Thanks, I wondered since 1957,1958 Dodges don't have that set up there might have been a problem with them.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-25 8:30 PM (#632473 - in reply to #632468)
Subject: RE: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2023-10-24 11:06 PM
Regarding the bracket, the vertical leg is too tall and the "foot" needs some shaping to fit into a niche in the hemi valve cover and a bigger hole. Both modifications will happen tomorrow (I hope).


Modifications made: "foot" shaped to fit into valve cover niche, hole enlarged to accommodate valve cover bolt, vertical leg trimmed down and re-drilled for cable/tubing clamp.

Installed (not easy with the tubing in place) but it took some time.

After I took the photo below, I realized that I had failed to consider the movement of the tubing when the belt is tightened (it raises the tubing up). Hence there will be a Mk2 tubing bracket and it will be slotted. I can see the need for a "Tee" bolt (which I don't have).

Still, some progress.







(Mk1TubingStabilizationBracket.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Mk1TubingStabilizationBracket.jpg (145KB - 49 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
22mafeja
Posted 2023-10-26 1:16 AM (#632475 - in reply to #632317)
Subject: RE: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?


Elite Veteran

Posts: 626
50010025
Location: Finland
Dave , I think this project is very enlightening. If one wants to make modifications(nothing wrong with that!) it simply is this time consuming and challenging
if you are going to do it right. Which never happens by the first attempt imo. Good work!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-26 12:59 PM (#632481 - in reply to #632473)
Subject: RE: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2023-10-25 5:30 PM
After I took the photo below, I realized that I had failed to consider the movement of the tubing when the belt is tightened (it raises the tubing up). Hence there will be a Mk2 tubing bracket and it will be slotted. I can see the need for a "Tee" bolt (which I don't have).


Thanks for your comments Ralf. I am at the very edge of the quitting cliff so as long as I make some progress, I will forge stubbornly onward.

I did a quick sketch of a slotted Mk2 bracket concept and then realized that I could do a mock-up in cereal box cardboard with a 1/4 x 20 (or so) bolt and wing nut that I had handy. So 10 minutes later, I was looking at this:

(There are still issues to be worked out but at least something like this will be adjustable to accommodate the movement of the PS pump during the tightening of the drive belt)



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-10-26 3:42 PM




(Mk2TubingStabilizationBracketMockUp_Up.jpg)



(Mk2TubingStabilizationBracketMockUp_Down.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Mk2TubingStabilizationBracketMockUp_Up.jpg (149KB - 44 downloads)
Attachments Mk2TubingStabilizationBracketMockUp_Down.jpg (149KB - 41 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-26 6:08 PM (#632484 - in reply to #632481)
Subject: RE: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Finally Picked up my Summit Racing 37 deg Flare kit.

Can't say that I am impressed. Seems like the "hole" (in 2 parts) for the 3/8ths tubing isn't right. With steel tubing, it definitely egged (ovalled) the tubing. This caused my first trial to split the steel at the edge. The second try was a bit better but it was still oval.

Then I tried the copper-nickel tubing which is much softer. Still ovalled but the pointy bit seemed to round out the flare.

Here is a raw comparison of two steel tubing flares (45 deg) and one Cu-Ni 37 deg flare.

The first close up is steel tubing with the pre-made 45 deg double flare that comes with the tubing (with male fittings)

The second close up is steel tubing with a 45 deg single flare that I did the other day

The third close up is the Cu-Ni tubing with the 37 deg flare that I just did after lunch. I guess that is is better than the 45 deg flares. I will use the 37 flare kit when I finalize things but I have read that a 45 deg flare on a Cu-Ni tube can be made to work and seal using the 37 deg tubing ferrule to push the flare tight onto the JIC fitting. Or so they say....





(SummitRacing37DegFlareKit.jpg)



(JICNo6Fitting&3_8thsFlares.jpg)



(JICNo6FittingWith45DegDoubleFlare.jpg)



(JICNo6FtgWithSingle45Flare.jpg)



(JICNo6FtgWithSingle37Flare.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments SummitRacing37DegFlareKit.jpg (144KB - 47 downloads)
Attachments JICNo6Fitting&3_8thsFlares.jpg (147KB - 45 downloads)
Attachments JICNo6FittingWith45DegDoubleFlare.jpg (146KB - 48 downloads)
Attachments JICNo6FtgWithSingle45Flare.jpg (148KB - 44 downloads)
Attachments JICNo6FtgWithSingle37Flare.jpg (149KB - 51 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-31 5:35 PM (#632533 - in reply to #632484)
Subject: RE: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Or maybe something like this using Earl's style braid hoses and AN fittings (to attach to my JIC fittings)

*IF* I can get the hose negotiate that first big 90 deg bend without kinking it

(???)



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-10-31 5:38 PM




(BraidedHoseAndANfittingOption_1.jpg)



(BraidedHoseAndANfittingOption_2.jpg)



(BraidedHoseAndANfittingOption_3.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments BraidedHoseAndANfittingOption_1.jpg (147KB - 46 downloads)
Attachments BraidedHoseAndANfittingOption_2.jpg (132KB - 45 downloads)
Attachments BraidedHoseAndANfittingOption_3.jpg (144KB - 45 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-31 7:29 PM (#632537 - in reply to #632533)
Subject: RE: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2023-10-31 2:35 PM
*IF* I can get the hose negotiate that first big 90 deg bend without kinking it



Subsequently, I remembered that I still had an unused PEX water pipe 90 deg bend "brace" that might prove useful for this project.

(Probably with some modification )



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-10-31 8:18 PM




(BraidedHoseAndANfittingOption_4.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments BraidedHoseAndANfittingOption_4.jpg (146KB - 45 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-11-02 9:06 PM (#632575 - in reply to #632537)
Subject: RE: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
I inserted the straight fitting into the braided hose without the ferrule and tightened the nut. Then I installed the braided hose on the PS pump with the JIC 6 banjo fitting and ran the loose end over towards the Coaxial steering box for a trial fit.

There is a bit of interference with the AN fitting at the pump end but that just meant clocking the banjo fitting a tiny bit.

I tried the hose with and without that PEX 90 deg brace and decided that the brace probably won't be needed.

I simulated moving the PS pump to tighten the drive belt and the braided hose lapped it up. There won't be issues. Just connect it at the PS end and the Coaxial steering gear box end and let the hose in between float,
unrestrained.

At least that is my thought at the moment. (The hard pipe bracket that I was contemplating is very close, maybe too close to ignore)

All in all, way simpler that hard pipe, crimped fittings and rubber PS hose (after I spent a considerable amount of money trying to get that to work)





(BraidedHoseLeavingJICFittingAtPump.jpg)



(BraidedHoseNearBracket.jpg)



(BraidedHoseHeadingToCoaxialBox.jpg)



(BraidedHoseNearCoaxialBox.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments BraidedHoseLeavingJICFittingAtPump.jpg (148KB - 42 downloads)
Attachments BraidedHoseNearBracket.jpg (147KB - 42 downloads)
Attachments BraidedHoseHeadingToCoaxialBox.jpg (148KB - 40 downloads)
Attachments BraidedHoseNearCoaxialBox.jpg (148KB - 42 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2023-11-03 7:36 PM (#632582 - in reply to #632537)
Subject: RE: Power Steering Project Related: Is this the way a "Standard" piping flare and a JIC fittng fit?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9769
5000200020005001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Forgot to take this photo yesterday, showing the connection between the Performance World Earl's style braided hose and hose fitting attached to the JIC 6 banjo fitting on the Saginaw PS Pump (mock-up pump).

There is a slight amount of interference between the PS pump return pipe and the braided hose fitting.





Edited by 56D500boy 2023-11-03 7:40 PM




(BraidedHoseAtBanjoFittngOnPSPump.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments BraidedHoseAtBanjoFittngOnPSPump.jpg (148KB - 42 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

* * * This site contains affiliate links for which we may be compensated * * *


(Delete all cookies set by this site)