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 Four pole/lug starter solenoids/relays - they are NOT all the sameJump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9905     Location: Lower Mainland BC | . I am putting this together to consolidate info contained in a thread started by Ernie B. (burnemup) regarding his 55 Dodge with Powerflite auto trans that he was finding would start in gear, not just neutral. As such, this post pertains mostly to 55-60 Plymouth, Dodge and maybe some Desoto that have fender-mounted starter solenoids (not solenoids mounted on the starter motor like Chryslers in those years). I assume that you know that the starter solenoid is used to pass major current from the battery to the starter motor after being triggered by a minor current from the ignition switch that is turned to START. Ernie was able to start his 55 Dodge engine in any gear, not a good thing. I tried to help Ernie a few different ways because of previous documentation of the neutral safety switch (NSS) that I had done and my own experience with my 56 Dodge. Some of the ideas that I had were bad (frayed/shorting) wiring from the fender-mounted four pole/lug starter solenoid to the NSS, a stuck-closed NSS and/or faulty solenoid that was internally shorting to ground. At one point, I had Ernie remove the solenoid from the fender liner (with the wiring still connectes) and insulate it electrically from the fender liner to check for internal shorting. Ernie did that and reported back that when he did that once his solenoid was electrically isolated from the fender liner, the engine no longer started in any gear, not even in neutral. That was confusing to me because I thought that it should still start in neutral (assuming that the neutral safety switch was working correctly). EVENTUALLY, the penny dropped. CLANG!! I did a bit of research and discovered that not all four lug/pole starter solenoids are created equal. I am only going to suggest that there are two kinds, the Mopar style that is internally insulated and grounds only through the neutral safety switch and the "Ford" style that grounds through the metal frame of the solenoid. I fear that, for some reason, Ernie has a "Ford" style that is NOT internally insulated and grounds through the solenoid frame and therefore works independently of the neutral safety switch, allowing starting in all gears. Here are two diagrams that illustrate the differences between these two types/styles, starting with the "Ford" type and then the "Mopar" type: It can be seen from the above that the "Ford" type's two small lugs/poles are used to connect to the ignition switch on the "S" terminal, and, once energized pass full 12 V to both the starter and the ignition coil. The later is connected via the "I" terminal and is intended to by-pass any ignition ballast resistor and provide full battery voltage to the coil to aid starting. The Mopar type is insulated internally and the trigger signal from the ignition switch is grounded externally via the neutral safety switch (NSS). No NSS grounding, no start. This image from a Youtube video (link below) shows how with a "Ford" type four pole solenoid, there is contiuity between the "S" terminal and the mounting frame of the solenoid. This image, from the same video, shows the same continuity test between the "S" terminal and the solenoid mounting frame of an internally insulated/externally grounded "Mopar" type four pole solenoid. THERE IS NO SUCH CONTINUITY! Finally, from the same video, continuity testing between the "S" and "I" terminals of an internally insulated/externally grounded "Mopar" type four pole solenoid. THERE IS CONTINUITY. Ground for the "S" terminal would be the NSS via the "I" terminal. This is what we have on our 55-60 Mopar automatics Turns out that the internally insulated, externally-grounded, four pole/lug "Mopar" starter solenoid ("SWITCH" in the parts manuals) was the same PN, 1692 659, from 1956 (the start of the 12 V systems) to 1960. Some NOS 1692 659s are still out there: And they are also available as aftermarket parts, such as the Cole Hersee 24023 (and others). Just make sure what you buy for your 55-60 Mopar is "Insulated", NOT Grounded. REFERENCES: Neutral Safety Switches (NSSs): http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=69708&... Ernie's Thread: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=79189&... Youtube Comparison of various solenoids (start at about 4:05 for pertinent info): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty6dOGh8RFU Edited by 56D500boy 2024-03-13 2:26 AM | ||
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| LostDeere59 |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 406 Location: Hilltown, PA | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9905 Location: Lower Mainland BC | LostDeere59 - 2024-03-13 12:08 PM Ayup. There are also 3 terminal solenoids which have only 1 small terminal because they ground through the case/bracket. Agree. Those are PN 1692 658s. They were used on standard transmission Mopars 55-60. They didn't need a fourth terminal for a Neutral Safety Switch connection because it was assumed that the person trying to start the car would either put the manual transmission in Neutral and/or put the clutch in. Hopefully.  (1692658_MoparStarterSolenoid_56-60StandardTrans.jpg) Attachments ----------------  1692658_MoparStarterSolenoid_56-60StandardTrans.jpg (57KB - 16 downloads) | ||
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