[FWDLK] FW: TF transmission fluids

I have no specialized input on tranny fluids, except that I have always used Dextron in all my Mopar trannys. I used it in my un-rebuilt 56 PowerFlite for 20 years, until I replaced it with a 727 two years ago. It operated perfect, with crisp OEM shifts, except for external seal leaks.

I did hear at one time that Ford developed Type F for a reason. Somebody at Ford once decided that money could be saved (the root of all weaknesses in most cars) by reducing the number of clutches in their tranny. Then it was found that they slipped too much, so a new tranny fluid was developed that had more friction in the clutches. Thus Type F, where the “F” stands for “friction”, not Ford. It is supposed to be equal in lubricating the hard parts.

I did contact a 40 year experienced 727 TF specialist. His opinion on fluids is in the email below.

Dave Homstad

56 Dodge D500

-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Blais aka T'Flite Patty [mailto:tflitepatty@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 3:37 PM
To: 'David Homstad'
Subject: RE: TF transmission fluids

Dave,

Opinions are, well…………opinions, eh ?

My 40+ years in the Torqueflite “hobby”, “avocation” and finally “business” have made me acutely aware of the often very pointedly focused opinions about automatic transmissions; objectivity is often tossed aside, to the detriment of continuing education.

I am not familiar with the author of the ATF e-mail. Where Mr. Riehl may have some validity to some of his viewpoints, it seems more to me that much of it is “fringe element” opinion rather than accurate historical fact. The general tone sounds a bit too much like all the blind rhetoric I’ve heard over the years about how great shift kits work in Torqueflites; more on that at a later time (in the negative by the way !).

The fluid listed in the Chrysler factory service manuals for the cast-iron TF’s as well as the 1960’s TF’s is “type A, suffix A”; for many years hence the newer fluids referenced the new fluids superceding the older “type A, suffux A”. During a discussion of this subject at one of Chryler’s traveling drag race seminars years ago the engineers were asked about B&M’s blue “Trick Shift” fluid; the engineers explained the basics of fluid chemical composition and that Ford type F fluid was more practical to substitute for the expensive B&M fluid. They also explained that the Ford clutch friction material and type F fluid were designed to work together, i.e., type of material and fluid chemical makeup to effect appropriate shift quality. Reference was made to “shift modifiers”, etc., most of which went over the heads of us “non-engineer” types. They did point out that Chrysler and GM units could use type F fluid and realize a bit of enhanced firmness to the shift quality, but using the Chrysler/GM type ATF in Fords was not acceptable.

The statement about newer fluids causing separation of friction material from their steel backing seems unlikely as the newer fluids are generally superceding the older versions ?

My experience with the aluminum case Torqueflites begun in the 1960’s primarily with the drag-race and high-performance crowd; they tend to be an excellent test of component durability, both “soft parts” and “hard parts”. From my experience exclusively with the Torqueflite I believe more damage has been done by Chrysler’s implementation of hydraulic restrictions and optimistic re-engineering of tried and true methods, blind use by the aftermarket rebuilders of the more extensive shift kits and marketing of exotic and expensive friction materials. A testimony to this is a call from a local drag race customer recently that he just attained

400 quarter mile runs with his mid-10 second car; he’s been running on OEM Borg-Warner friction discs the entire time.

If the suggestion that the old ATF formulas turned to some form of valve-body-blocking crystalline material was accurate I find it hard to believe the information wouldn’t be burned into everyone’s mind ? In 40+ years including those of the “type A, suffix A” era I’ve never seen evidence of that.

If you are inclined to gravitate towards the best fluid available I’d suggest checking the synthetics; expensive comparatively but offer many benefits including higher temperature capability, better chemical composition, etc. Personally I’d suggest contacting someone long-tenured in the petroleum industry to obtain accurate interpretations of the progression in ATF formulations over the years. Much of the current makeup of ATF has been driven by the implementation of the computer-controlled units absolutely requiring enhanced lubrication and durability capabilities.

Let me know how your research comes out; I’m always interested in hard, valid information to enhance my knowledge.

Thanks; let me know if I can be of further assistance with parts or information.

Pat

Please note: PERSONAL or BUSINESS checks require 15 BANKING days (approx. 21 calendar days) to clear before shipping merchandise.

Patrick Blais

Pat Blais Transmissions

Seattle

Specializing in 1960-1965 727 & 904 Torqueflites (1966+ also)

ALSO NOTE: new email address tflitepatty@xxxxxxxxxxx

Please visit our eBay Store at: T'Flite Patty's Shop Mart

http://stores.ebay.com/TFlite-Pattys-Shop-Mart

-----Original Message-----
From: David Homstad [mailto:dhomstad@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 3:05 AM
To: Pat Blais aka T'Flite Patty
Subject: TF transmission fluids

Pat,

Could you provide an opinion on the fluid advice in the email below? Thanks.

I am still looking for a 21 tooth speedometer gear for my 62 TorqueFlite. A&A plans to reproduce them, but their vendor still hasn’t started on them yet.

Thanks,

Dave Homstad

----- Original Message -----

From: George Riehl

To: Wayne Graefen

Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 6:58 PM

Subject: Re: trans fluid

Hi Wayne;

The best fluid to use in the older P/F, T/F and 727s and 904s, is type F. If F cannot be found, type FA is O.K. FA has just a little more "slip" additive. By no means use Mercon/Dextron. After a period of use, M/D fluid will actually seperate the friction disc material from the steel backing. Most other fluids will also damage the friction material.

In "modern" day cars, the trannys are set up to shift so that one cannot "feel" the shifting. So, the manufacturers have formulated fluids with more "slip" additive. Slippage of the friction discs causes gradual degeneration of the discs. The "old" T/F and P/F trannys always shifteed a little harder than other auto manufacturers trannys, but they did last longer. Generally, 70 - 100K miles, most GM trannies were shot. In the past, GM/Ford owners bought "Chryslers" and hated the "harsher" shifting and went back to other manufacturers. Chrysler trannys lasted well beyond 150+K miles. This also applies to the 727 trannys.

Some time ago, Chrysler Performance issued a bulletin about trans fluid and suggested that type F be used in all 727s used in competition. This was the result from the "drag" racing guys.

The "old" Type A-Suffix A fluid was manufactured with a parrifin base material. When heated, the "wax" would turn into crystals (like rock candy) and plug the passagages in the valve bodies, resulting in trans failure. I have found this in a number of "used" trannys that I have rebuilt that came from junkyards. One has to literally dig out the passages with a screwdriver.

It is best to drop the pan and drain the converter. Clean the pan and scren. AND, in some cases, drop the valve body and clean it thoroughly. That will add life to a very good used tranny. And while one is at it, readjust the bands (300s, front, 2 1/4 turns, rear band, 2 turns out) after tightening down both band adhustments with about 75 inch pounds, then lock down the nut.

It's like giving the tranny a S, S, S and then a good meal with new fluid.

And, when replacing the pan with a new gasket, make sure that you "pound" down the raised bolt holes in the pan so the gasket seals properly. Very important! And, please, do not use any silicone sealer. Some tend to use way too much which in turn will "squeeze" out and find the filter and plug it up. Bad news. Sometimes, even gets into the valve bodies.

George Riehl