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Location: USA - KY | :) Sorry, guys, it's that time again. Time to discuss dual master cylinders. Groan.  I've searched through a couple of years' worth of FL posts discussing MC's, YET I'm still wondering if anyone has the "latest" scoop on what there is available out there for our old cars when it comes to dual MC's. I'd really like to have the "backup safety system" that a dual MC is supposed to provide, if it's within reason to install one. I've installed an original power brakes system from a Fireflite (the bellows type) into my '57 Firesweep, and now I'm trying to find a dual MC that will fit. I'm not installing disc brakes. I'm thinking of going about things in one of two ways: - NEW parts only dual MC that will fit without too much jiggery pokery...if such a thing is possible. - OR...just forget abut the whole darn thing, and have my original, single MC rebuilt professionally, ensuring that all bushings are pretty new bronze. Thoughts? Ideas? Warnings? Threats? Song Lyrics? LOL |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | On my non-power set up I matched up a later in the 60s dual M/C, works fine. Not sure though on yours, but you should be able to sort through the later M/Cs and find one that will work. |
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Posts: 3777
Location: NorCal |
Look for a Bendix 11323
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bendix-11323-New-Master-Cylinder-/371027169... |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13049
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | I don't want to crash the party, but a dual cylinder with drum brakes just won't buy you safety. Lets say you connect the front wheels to one circuit, then you're just fine if you lose the rear circuit, but if you lose the front circuit, then the rear brakes wont have any real stopping power.
The best thing that you can do if you keep your drum brakes is to make sure that the whole system is in top condition. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Check out the bottom-of-page photos and comments on page 51 of this thread:
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=24680&...
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Location: Arizona | wizard - 2014-04-09 1:06 PM
I don't want to crash the party, but a dual cylinder with drum brakes just won't buy you safety. Lets say you connect the front wheels to one circuit, then you're just fine if you lose the rear circuit, but if you lose the front circuit, then the rear brakes wont have any real stopping power.
The best thing that you can do if you keep your drum brakes is to make sure that the whole system is in top condition.
At one time they split the circuit side to side to prevent exactly what you mentioned from happening. If half the MC went out you had one front wheel still working and the rear wheel on the opposite side of the car still working. It would take you roughly twice as long to come to a stop. But you can only do it that way with drum brakes. If you have disks you have to split it front to back instead of side to side so you have the problem you outlined. I think I saw a test report once on stopping only with the rear brakes and it took them an ungodly long time to get the car to stop. I guess it's still better than no brakes. Theoretically you have the emergency brake to do the same thing. |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13049
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Yes, that's an option, but still the stopping power of one front drum and one rear leaves very much to whish for and the car will force steer since the rear drum cant make up to the force of the front one. Any which way it's a lot of work and money for a tiny bit better safety.
Should one like to really update the car, the it's dual mc and disks front and rear and a spilt circuit side to side - the combined brake force from one front and the opposite rear disks will stop the car and still the car will keep a reasonable course without risk of ditching it. |
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Expert
Posts: 2788
Location: USA - KY | 
Thanks for the replies, guys! Please keep the advice coming.
That Teflon tape tip was great, Neil.
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Posts: 3777
Location: NorCal | wizard - 2014-04-09 1:06 PM
Lets say you connect the front wheels to one circuit, then you're just fine if you lose the rear circuit, but if you lose the front circuit, then the rear brakes wont have any real stopping power.
Maybe, but you'll have SOME stopping power....as opposed to none. |
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Location: Arizona | Has anyone ever used the trans mounted "parking brake" to stop their car from driving speeds? Year ago I heard it would just snap off the driveshaft if you tried it. |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13049
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | The trick is to apply and release the parking brake - it's tricky, because you must keep the release handle down with one hand and pump with the foot on the parking brake. I have done it, but luckily not in an emergency, but for to test it. The stopping power is actually half bad
I think that a brake test on driven rollers in the car inspection facility would tear something apart - they never test the parking brake on rollers here in Sweden. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | jimntempe - 2014-04-10 3:00 PM
Has anyone ever used the trans mounted "parking brake" to stop their car from driving speeds? Year ago I heard it would just snap off the driveshaft if you tried it.
back in 93 i drove a 60 desoto i bought in the US from bremerhaven to my home, about 80 miles, just using the parking brake that fortunately worked very well. i still had the regular brakes for emergency stops but they locked the front wheels and required backward driving to unlock. biggest problem was to remember NOT to use the brakes.
driveshafts can snap of course but its very unlikely when using the parking brake. its more likely to snap during wot starts because the tires are under load and have better traction during acceleration.
Edited by 1960fury 2014-04-10 4:19 PM
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Location: Ontario, Canada | The parking brake for 57/58 ( at least Dodge) works very well to stop the car. Just keep the handle turned and apply whatever braking you need. There is no release handle or pedal involved. With the handle always turned it is in release mode.
Greg |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7401
Location: northern germany | correct. its a myth that the transmission mounted mopar parking brakes are inefficient. properly adjusted they can lock the tires anytime. still a bad design because the extra drum, that turns at engine speed in direct, eats LOTS of power. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | I dont tnink I would like diagonally connected brakes, anyone that has a car suffering the left wheek locking up problem will tell you how hard the car pulls.
Not as bad if your expecting it, but the first stop when your not expecting it could be a worry.
The total loss of the front brake circuit on first application would also be alarming, as the rears really dont do that much (I think its something like 20%), but I would take 20% over nothing anyday, and if its the rear circuit that goes, then you still have 80% braking, again< I would take that over none anyday as well.
The E brake is (if anything) even worse than having just the rear (normal) brakes working, look at the size of that single drum compared to the size of the ones on the wheels, and you will see what I mean.
Thank 57Chizler for that number, as I will be getting one after I get the dodge licenced (Being cautious with the licencing people with brake mods), The other threads normally say to fit something off this car or that car, but that dont work over here (aint seen a durango, seen a dingo or 2 though)
I think its really worth it, but thats comming from someone thats played the "no brakes, white knuckle" game
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I've previously mentioned that, around 1982 (and before I knew about such things like checking the brake fluid level
periodically; my ride had been dead-stored in IN for 'many' years before I bought it, in late 1980)....my OEM M/C
was leaking out a drip/squirt or so of fluid from its front brake switch orifice every time that the brake was applied...
and/but, there was, otherwise, no other evidence of such leakage occurring.....
the M/C finally ran dry on a significant down-hill boulevard in South Lake Tahoe, with me traveling at about 35-40 MPH.
The handbrake worked to slow down and stop the car by the bottom of that hill....and, nobody, fortunately, happened to get into my way, during that exercise...
but that excursion was not a fun event.
Coasted into a service station, at the intersection, and discovered the empty M/C resevoir, and that the leakage had been occurring for quite a while.
Put in fresh brake fluid and everything was alright (no air got into the brake lines), but, I kept looking at and filling-up
the resevoir during the trip home.
The leaking-fix was nothing more than applying Teflon tape to the orifices, but went ahead and replaced the M/C, eventually.
Ironically, the wrecking-yard 'Low-Boy' dual M/C (that MoPar Action scared me into installing), and which I had be expensively-overhauled, before its installation, has VERY small fluid resevoirs in it.
Edited by d500neil 2014-04-10 7:03 PM
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Location: Arizona | I've only had my brakes go out like that once. But somewhere along the way, not sure if from the brake incident or if someone taught me to do it, I have always "tested" my brakes while driving. Whenever I'm coming up to a situation that may require substantial braking I apply the brakes lightly to verify they are working. That gives me a little time if they are not to compose my OH s**t thoughts and prepare to use the emergency brake. |
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Regular
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Location: Minnesota | Still putting mine together, I prefer dual master cylinder (there is a reason they don't use singles anymore... Safety).
I used a remote master cylinder kit from Master Power Brakes (MC1001MZ) and an adapter purchased from Summit Racing to convert from the four-bolt to the two-bolt mounting (see photo).
My car has front disks and rear drums so inline is a proportioning valve purchased from Speedway Motors that also includes a taillight pressure switch.
Also in the line going to the back brakes is a 10-pound residual pressure valve (needed for drum brakes). As there are no check valves in this Master Cylinder.
Lastly, I didn't like the look of the white plastic remote reservoir that came with the kit, so I replaced it with the aluminum one mounted to the firewall and had it powder coated before installing it.
I am still restoring the car, so I haven't had the opportunity to test the entire setup yet, but with any luck later this summer!
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 362
Location: North Carolina | On my 56 Dodge and 59 Sport Fury I used a 68 Newport dual master that bolted right up. Obviously they are drums all around and so far they're working great. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Of course, they are "working" great; a M/C is nothing more than a resevoir, to hold a certain amount of extra brake fluid
and to maintain the exclusion of air from entering the brake lines.
If it's not 'leaking' it is 'working' great.
At least, power steering fluid circulates, to/from its pump.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 362
Location: North Carolina | The working great was more a reference to the bolt-up exchange than the function of a master cylinder. Remember Neil, I was almost killed in an accident because my 64 Ford Fairlane sprung a leak somewhere in the system and drained the single reservoir out immediately. I believe my chances would have been 50% greater to stop, if I'd had a dual master cylinder. To each their own I suppose. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | I think anyone that has experianced the un expected total loss of braking (I lost e brake as well travelling down a mountain road) will be an advocate of dual circuit brakes.
I would have been in much less trouble having had front brakes still working.
It was a rear axle failure that killed my brakes, not a lack of maintanence of the braking system itself, so being single circuit brakes, with the e brake actuating on the rear drums and a single spinner diff, when the axle, wheel, brake drum ect parted company with the car (leaving only 3 wheels), when I pushe dthe brake pedal, it popped the pistons out of the wheel cylinder and let the fluid out, the e brake was cable actuated and the tention worked against each rear drum, so as there was only 1 drum left, there was nothing to actuate against and I couldnt even engine brake, as it just spun the diff centre.
I was lucky that I was able to control the car enough to make it down the slope until the road went up a for a bit and the car came to a stop by gravity.
The dodge has not got dual circuit brakes yet, but it will.
Edited by ttotired 2014-04-11 9:19 PM
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Expert
Posts: 2788
Location: USA - KY |
Thanks, guys!
Several ways of going about things, I see.
Good info, and good first-hand accounts too.
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Expert
Posts: 2119
Location: atlanta | I used the Scarbird kit on my 61 Plymouth, they recommend a 68 Plymouth dual disk/drum master cylinder, i ordered it but it has no pushrod to attach to the brake pedel like the original 61 master, any ideas?
Edited by fenix 2014-04-26 3:35 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | These are all valid points and issues with overhauling a single-pot or a dualie resevoir.
Mark and Mick, above, suffered catastrophic failures of their brakes (for/from whatever reasons---maintenance or otherwise).
My car's M/C leakage was purely maintenance related (didn't know to check the M/C fill level, back in 1982).
But, after you properly have your (single-pot) M/C system be overhauled, with new brake lines and wheel cylinders (which you
should do, at any rate), you HAVE to ask yourself:
Self; do I feel lucky?
I am getting into a car without front and side air bags, no anti-lock brakes (regardless of the issue about installing DISC brakes) no seat-back restraint (unless you've got a 4-door model; a non-flapping seat back is a real safety-control issue), only (maybe) seatbelts, seats that do not really control or support body movements, a non-forgiving dashboard/windshield/steering wheel, no head-restraints ("WHIPLASH"--no joke, there), no designed-in impact crumple zones, and a host of other age-condition issues that varies with every olde car (what condition/age are your TIRES; bias ply (the horror--or radials?)
So, once you overhaul your single-pot M/C system, you can allow yourself the luxury of WORRYING about everything-ELSE that can KILL
you whenever you get into your olde car.
Drive carefully!
Edited by d500neil 2014-04-26 3:10 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3777
Location: NorCal |
You imply that once you've overhauled everything in the single-pot brake system you can quit worrying about brake failure; but nothing is fool-proof because fools are so ingenious and Murphy was an optimist.
There are any number of road hazards that can fail a brake system so as to render it inop and, remember, every single-pot system left the factory with in brand new condition.....time is your enemy. |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | I'll have faith in the fruit jar when someone convinces the OEMs to start using them again. |
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Dual Master Cylinders...again!
