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D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-03-12 1:40 PM (#609791)
Subject: D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use



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I am slowly (but methodically (I think)) putting together a post about the D500 engines from 1956 to 1961. To do so, I have already posted about the info about the D500 engines in the 1956 to 61 brochures and photos of the 56 to 61 engine bays (for visual reference). I have also been working on the table below, using information from the brochures, details in Willem Weertman's "Chrysler Engines 1922 to 1998" which I finally got in the mail this past Friday, the various years of Parts books (55-58, 59, 60 and 61) (to get the carb numbers - where possible) and a bit of Allpar. The result (so far) is the Rev 0 version of the table below. *ALL* of the data is open to discussion (if needed) but particularly the areas high lit in yellow where I either do not know or I can't find the info or there is conflicting info. I got particularly lost in Allpar regarding the 1960 to 1962 Dodge Darts. A 413 D500?

There were a couple of areas that I found the D500 carbs, especially the dual carbs, were the same as the same year Desoto Adventurer and I was tempted (but resisted) to use the Adventurer engine specs if I didn't have the info from Weertman's book. (I might have found some errors in his book, e.g. a D500 with a 2 bbl carb? (I don't think so)).

Current List of Reference Posts:

1. The Brochures: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=75511&...

2. Recognizing the 56 D500 and D500-1 and 57 Dodge D500, Super D500 and D501 engines: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=70160&...

3. Recognizing 1958 to 1961 Dodge D500 Engines: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=75524&...

4. Allpar "The Early (non-Valiant) 1960-1962 Dodge Darts": https://www.allpar.com/threads/the-early-non-valiant-1960-1962-dodge...

The current (Rev 0) table that needs review and input (Note: I will need back up info/reference for any suggested changes, not just opinions (Sorry)).

Edited by 56D500boy 2021-03-12 2:24 PM




(D500EngineDetailsTable_Rev0.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments D500EngineDetailsTable_Rev0.jpg (198KB - 128 downloads)
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Sonoramic60
Posted 2021-03-12 6:25 PM (#609799 - in reply to #609791)
Subject: Re: D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use


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56D --
The horsepower issues on these old MoPar engines are intriguing. I really get a kick about the 345 horses given the '59 Super D500 when the same engine (383 CID, 2X4V carbs in tandem) in the '59 DeSoto was advertised at 350. In 1960, Plymouth's ram 361 was listed at 310 while there was a Dart ram 361 (same engine) at 320 though it sometimes is said to have the same 310 as the 361 SonoRamic Commando. Interestingly, in the 1958 model year, that 361 Super D500 with tandem 2X4V carbs came out at 320 HP. My big thing is the 330 ponies that the ram '60 383s were supposed to have in view of the 345-350 they had the year before. Since all the '60 ram-inducted engines, 361s, 383s, and 413s were basically identical (except for those in the 300F Specials), it seems as though the horsepower figures for the mills should be proportionate to their displacement. Thus. the 361 being 87% the size of the 413 should get 87% of the 413's 375 HP or about 325 (suspiciously close to the '58's 320) and the 383 which has 93% of the 413's cubes, should put out 350-360 (again, close to the 350 of the '59 DeSoto).
Joe Godec

Edited by Sonoramic60 2021-03-12 6:27 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-03-12 9:11 PM (#609803 - in reply to #609799)
Subject: Re: D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use



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Thanks for the comments Joe. I figured that you would have some long ram comments. I am not exactly sure why the different divisions would rate their engines with different hp for the exact same configuration (displacement and carbs, etc.). Except that I am sure a Desoto could not have a lower hp rating than a lowly Dodge. OMG. That would be the end of the world. So I am guessing that either there were real differences, e.g. 10.25:1 compression for the Desoto vs 10.0:1 for the Dodge version and/or Desoto and Dodge rated their engines at different RPMs such that the Dodge came out with a lower number.

Or something.

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Sonoramic60
Posted 2021-03-13 11:06 AM (#609813 - in reply to #609803)
Subject: Re: D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use


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56D --
I think this horsepower issue is clouded even more by the fact that Chrysler's Trenton Engine Plant produced all of the corporation's B- and RB-Series engines (350, 361, 383, 400, 413, 426, and 440 CIDs) from their introduction in 1957 until the newer ones came out in the late '70s/early 80s. I've discussed this with several people who were either in the corporate management chain or somehow associated with its racing efforts (such as old Ramchargers), and they offered the same explanation as you -- that it was strictly an in-house political wrangle whereby the more prestigious lines absolutely had to have more horsepower than the "lowly" ones. The "horsepower war" at the time was more or less dictated by vehicle prestige and not by competition on street, strip, or track.
You might find it of interest that I have been told a few (a very few) RB 383 with the 4.03" bore but longer 3.75" stroke found themselves in '60 Darts and Plymouths where their greater torque was beneficial on drag strips and short NASCAR tracks. Of course, I cannot believe that they came off the line in this configuration, but somewhat later were "modified" much in the fashion of the long ram 383s of Al Eckstrand and Bud Faubel had their internal walls cut away to provide high end power. I have a neat set of instructions showing how this can be done within the limits set by the NHRA and AHRA.
Joe
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-03-13 12:38 PM (#609816 - in reply to #609813)
Subject: Re: D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use



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Joe: Until very recently, I hadn't even known that there were two versions of the 383, the "normal" LB and a two-year special RB 383. Just the other say, I was reading on page 163 of Weertman's Chrysler engine book, where he recounts that, for 1959, Chrysler wanted RB 413s for the New Yorkers, Imperials and 300Es and LB 383s for the Windsor and Saratogas. Problem was the Trenton LB production line capacity was alread t fully booked for LB 361s and 383s for the Plymouth, Dodge and Desoto lines. So to get out of this bind, Chrysler division requested that the Trenton RB line produce some RB 383s for them. As a result, instead of the 4.25" bore and 3.375" stroke LB 383s, they got 4.03" bore x 3.75" stroke RB 383s. With a 4 bbl carb, these RB 383s apparently made 325 hp and 425 lb-ft of torque as opposed to a single 4 bbl LB 383 1959 Dodge D500 engine with 320 hp and 420 lb-ft.

Presumably when the 361 was phased out, the extra capacity on the Trenton LB line was taken over by LB 383 production and the need for RB 383s was gone after 2 years.

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56D500boy
Posted 2021-03-14 11:32 AM (#609836 - in reply to #609816)
Subject: Re: D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use



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I'm looking for something else and bumped into this old post along the way:

d500neil - 2008-09-19 4:04 PM
Interestingly, 1961 had a lot of different engine configurations available.
You could get an optional 4-bbl "Power Package"( 260HP), or a D500 361 4-bbl(305HP), or a Super D500
with 383 Rammie (330HP) , OR a "Super Ram Induction D500" 413 Rammie (375 HP; same engines as
300G).



Anybody got any hard copy info about this 1961 413 D500? I'm sure Neil did but he's hard to get a hold of these days. (RIP)

Edited by 56D500boy 2021-03-14 12:33 PM
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58coupe
Posted 2021-03-14 12:06 PM (#609837 - in reply to #609791)
Subject: Re: D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use



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The Ramcharger crew managed to slip one of these 413s past the tech crew for drag racing in a 61 Dodge but not sure it was ever made an option for the public in 61.
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58coupe
Posted 2021-03-14 12:11 PM (#609838 - in reply to #609791)
Subject: Re: D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use



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Dave, you need to pick up the book that tells the story of the ramchargers. These guys were mostly Chrysler employees and they helped develop The max wedge engines and the 2nd gen. hemi among other things.

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56D500boy
Posted 2021-03-14 12:36 PM (#609840 - in reply to #609837)
Subject: Re: D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use



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58coupe - 2021-03-14 9:06 AM
The Ramcharger crew managed to slip one of these 413s past the tech crew for drag racing in a 61 Dodge but not sure it was ever made an option for the public in 61.


On a related note, from the allpar link (60-62 Darts) above, I think that it was Bill Watson (Chrycoman) who said this:

"The 260-horsepower four-barrel 318 became optional on all models, and all existing engines continued, with new high-performance V-8s:

383-cid V8, 1 4-bbl carb, 325-bhp (Police Special)
383-cid V8, 2, 4-bbl carb, 340-bhp (D-500)
413-cid V8, 2 4-bbl carbs, 350-bhp (D-500)
413-cid V8, 2 4-bbl carbs, 375-bhp (D-500)

The D-500 version of the 361 had a 9 to 1 compression ratio and a four-barrel carburetor. The intake valves were enlarged for better breathing.
The Police Special had a compression ratio of 10 to 1 and a four-barrel carburetor."

But whoever said that, also said this:

"V8s had to make do with the two-speed Powerflite automatic, while the Torqueflite was reserved for the slant six."

Which, to me, makes absolutely no sense. (??)

So on that basis, I am still going to look for hardcopy info. Can any body scan (and post) the pertinent pages from the "Ramchargers" book?



Edited by 56D500boy 2021-03-14 12:40 PM
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Sonoramic60
Posted 2021-03-14 3:57 PM (#609853 - in reply to #609840)
Subject: Re: D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use


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Lads --
In 1961, the Ramchargers thought they could get more support from the corporation because of the publicity they would get by competing in the stock classes while still doing technical development work in off-duty hours (and having fun as well). To this end, they first approached the Plymouth Division (since Al Eckstrand was now a member and he had won the Super/Stock Automatic class at the 1960 NHRA Nationals with his '60 Fury), but the Plymouth honchos felt that drag racing wasn't one of the images they wanted to present to the public and weren't interested. However, somehow or other Dodge was and Taylor Dodge in Detroit "loaned" them a '61 Dart Pioneer 2-dr H/T. Jim Thornton has said he didn't know how this came about as all he knew was that when he first saw the car, the 413 was already in it.
At any rate, in that year the NHRA, AHRA, and NASCAR accepted as stock "any equipment certified by the factory" and it DID NOT have to be assembly line constructed. Thus, within the parameters of the racing authorities, the 413s for both Dodge and Plymouth in 1961 were considered "dealer installed" engines as they were certified as such. Even though they were not assembly line items, the rules at that time made them fully legal on strip or track. Neither the Ramchargers nor the Pettys were cheating.
The transmission to be used was a serious issue as most of the Ramchargers felt competing in Super/Stock was more prestigious than S/SA, even though the '61 Chrysler heavy-duty manual was only a three-speed and was susceptible to failure on hard shifts. Eckstrand, of course, championed the TorqueFlite, but the club decided on the manual.
Using the "factory certified" or "dealer installed" clauses, the engine got the "short" (15") long rams of the '60 300F Specials, Forged-True 12.5-to-1 (possibly 13-to-1) pistons, an RC-92 292 degree cam, solid lifters, increased internal clearances, and a wild set of specially hand-crafted exhaust headers that exited through the wheel wells. With this set-up, the car's first full-throttle down the quarter reached 109 with an e.t. of 13.41.
However, at the 1961 NHRA Nationals at Indianapolis, that manual trans did them in as it kept bending or even shearing synchronizer pins. Nonetheless the guys, primarily Thornton and Eckstrand, were able to set the low e.t. of the meet (13.03) and even knockoff Mickey Thompson's Poncho in the S/S eliminations, but a trans failure causing a miss shift against Don Nickolson's 409 Chevy cost them the class win. But what came next, really put Dodge in the spotlight. During a lull in the action, the strip announcer asked the crowd if they'd like to see another run between Nickolson and "that little Dodge" (Jim Thornton made a point of telling me it was a BIG car!). There was just enough time to pull the trans so by the time the smoke and dust settled, there was "that little Dodge" finishing way ahead of Strickler's 409. Photos of this made every car mag in the country. I still have my copy of "Hot Rod" with this pic.
Joe
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58coupe
Posted 2021-03-14 5:12 PM (#609864 - in reply to #609791)
Subject: Re: D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use



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Dave, not sure where this engine info came from but everything I've read and seen disagrees with it. AFAIK all 361s with single or dual 4s had 10 to 1 compression and powerflite or torqueflite was at the option of the buyer. Not sure you could even order a high performance with only the powerflite. I believe the lower compression 361 started in 62 with a 2 barrel and 9 to 1 and 270hp for regular gas.
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-03-14 7:18 PM (#609871 - in reply to #609864)
Subject: Re: D500 Engine Details 1956 to 1961 - A table for future use



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58coupe - 2021-03-14 2:12 PM Dave, not sure where this engine info came from but everything I've read and seen disagrees with it. AFAIK all 361s with single or dual 4s had 10 to 1 compression and powerflite or torqueflite was at the option of the buyer. Not sure you could even order a high performance with only the powerflite. I believe the lower compression 361 started in 62 with a 2 barrel and 9 to 1 and 270hp for regular gas.


The 9.0:1 info came from this Allpar webpage:

https://www.allpar.com/threads/the-early-non-valiant-1960-1962-dodge...

Willem Weertman has the 361 4bbls as 10.0:1 so I will stick with that.

I'm totally ignoring the suggestion that the big engines got Powerflites and the slant 6s got Torqueflites. Makes no sense at all.

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